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Insuring the intangible: Protecting IP and emerging tech


15 minutes

CFC Underwriting’s Michael Brunero explores insuring emerging technologies and intellectual property. From cryptocurrency to fashion designs, delve deep into the complexities of intangible assets.


With the rise of AI, the Internet of Things, blockchain services and more, intangible assets and modern solutions are increasingly prominent.

This creates tremendous opportunity, but also enormous challenges; how do you insure and legislate a technology when you’re not sure “what the value is going to be or how [it’s] going to be used?” What role will generative AI play in our future? And how can tech companies and insurers navigate large-scale, deeply complex IP claims?

We examine all this and more in our latest episode. TEC and CFC Underwriting’s Head of Tech, Media and IP Michael Brunero delve deep into the world of insuring emerging technologies and intellectual property.

We touch on some big industry-wide conversations, such as cryptocurrencies and NFTs. These volatile assets reflect the pace of change in this dynamic area of insurance.

There are also the David-and-Goliath dynamic that can challenge smaller or individual creatives generating novel ideas. When someone finds that a much bigger, better-resourced company has stolen their IP, it can feel like there is no recourse. Insurance plays a key role in protecting these copyrighted assets, designs and processes.

As Michael notes wryly, "you'd be surprised how effective a strongly worded letter from a reputable IP lawyer with an insurance company behind them can be for a small business.”

In this episode

  • Challenges and opportunities in intellectual property insurance

  • Insuring emerging technologies

  • The role of generative AI

  • Legislating rapidly developing tools

  • Preparing for market shifts

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Full episode transcript

[00:00:00] TEC: Hi, I'm Tom Chamberlain, VP of Customer Consulting at hyperexponential, and your host, otherwise known as TEC. I'm delighted to welcome you to the latest episode of TEC Talks. In this episode, we're talking to Michael Bonero, who's Head of Tech, Media and IP at CFC Underwriting. So, let's get straight into it. To kick us off, Michael, it would be great to get into what Tech, Media and IP are actually all about. I mean, a lot of insurance classes, property, motor, marine, aviation, they're kind of relatively easy to understand as insurance groups. probably much less so with those things and in particular sort of intangible assets.  

So, let's kick off by, could you give me an overview of what these things actually are?  

[00:00:53] Michael Brunero: Yeah. well, I guess for me, and what I do in that world is I basically provide insurance for businesses that are in the emerging tech space, for example, whether they're providing AI, Internet of Things, blockchain services, To the world of digital media, podcasters, influencers, experiential marketing, and then all the way down to intellectual property insurance.  

So protecting people's intangible assets, and creative endeavors for all types of businesses. So the way I like to kind of pull it all together is say, my department and what we do really is about ensuring the innovators and creatives of the world, trying to find solutions for people that are generating something new.  

Um. when it comes to intangible assets, assets, that's a huge part of what we do, because that's essentially what our clients are creating and what they're doing, you know, what are intangible assets, really, it's anything you can't touch, I don't know about you, but personally, I've got a lot more in my cloud storage than I do in my attic, that is the way of the world now we have a lot more, a lot more data than we do stuff, and so it's about making sure there's solutions for people's intangible assets. So obviously cyber insurance is one that people are probably most familiar with, around the protection of people's data. I think, you know, we always ensure our laptops, you know, the table that my laptop sitting on, but far more valuable to my company than my laptop is what is actually on my laptop.  

and that they're the kind of, kind of intangible assets all the way down to intellectual property. These days, that is the core of a business. If you're a software company, and someone alleged that you had actually stolen their idea, that would potentially render your entire business completely useless if you were no longer able to use that piece of software.  

So, I think these are really the key, core areas to businesses right now.  

[00:02:57] TEC: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, it's a kind of tricky one. I was going to use the word intangible and that's rather silly, but it's, it's, it's, it's hard, it's hard to put your finger on it because with, with sort of property insurance, you've got a building, right? You know how much it's worth, you get it valued, and, and you can insure it for that much.  

Same as you said, your laptop, your table. But I mean, how much is your, how much is your IP actually worth? Is, is, How do you go about sort of understanding what, what, what, what is my piece of software here? What, what is, what is this sort of unique thing that I have and how do you value it? Is it just a case of, well, I value it at this and, and please don't show it for that much.  

Well, what's, what's the thought process there?  

[00:03:35] Michael Brunero: Well, that's the difficult with difficulty with IP. You only truly know the value of what IP is worth when you try to sell it. And then it's, you know, who's willing to pay for it. so it is, it's an incredible, difficult, incredibly difficult task to value IP. the flip side of that is as an industry, these are the challenges that we're going to have to eventually solve, or risk becoming redundant to our customers.  

so yes, there's no actual tried and tested, measure. There are, you know, different types of IP asset valuers out there. but again, it's always a point in time valuation. What a piece of IP now might be actually very different in value to what it is in five years time. So even that point in time is really important.  

But, you know, what, what we can do is still, protect businesses, not necessarily for the value of the IP per se, but we can protect businesses against the threat of IP litigation. And I think that as well is important. I think we need to move down a journey of, of valuing IP and how we go there. but there's still so much value in, in IP protection over people's individual, you know, designs, for example, or, or processes.  

We often think of IP, for example, as being, products, but there's so much more. To it than that, even a process can be IP. For example, if you're a manufacturing firm, you might have a process that gives you a competitive edge because you can return goods to market faster and a greater capacity. And that then in of itself, that process is really valuable.  

I always use an example one of my friends, when, when I was back in Australia and she was really up and coming in fashion, she'd won multiple awards, they'd sent it to Milan and she decided she was going to get into the swimwear industry. She made these beautiful swimwear designs and then went to an extremely well known fashion house, a swimwear label, and they said, sorry, we're not interested.  

Only for a very short time later to find her designs on a rack with their label on it. yeah, so they absolutely took her designs and she's just one person. and, and basically said, what do I do? I can't do anything with it. I'm, I'm just powerless. I don't have lawyers. And, and, and they're the kind of.  

risks that we're starting to really see because people do feel powerless and they've spent a lot of time and effort, you know, she had to come up with an entire new line of swimwear because hers was redundant. And that's the other sort of businesses we're looking to kind of help, help work for, whether they're creative and creating something special or unique.  

we have a product that actually protects those little guys and actually allows them to pursue bigger. for doing things like that. So not just defending them, actually going against it. And you'd be surprised, how effective a strongly worded letter from a reputable IP lawyer with an insurance company behind them can be for a small business.  

it can work out really well. Often what, what, what tends to happen is, they don't, they don't often like pull the swimwear, for example, what they'll do is agree to pay a license, get a license agreement in place and pay fees for the use of their designs. So you can see some really, really great outcomes for small businesses, you know, for all types of businesses.  

But I think I'm, I'm very interested in kind of how we can protect the little guy, along the way.  

[00:06:47] TEC: That's, that's really interesting now because I, I kind of almost thought to sort of have yourself protected. You're going to need to patent stuff. You're going to trademark things. Is that, is that the case? Or can you get this? It's basically if you can show it's your design in the example that you gave there.  

Do you need to have registered all this? Or is that no, no, no, I can prove that here my drawing said the design and you have stolen my ideas.  

[00:07:11] Michael Brunero: Exactly. I think, you know, copyright exists at the time you, you produce something, in, in, in, in terms of like developing, song lyrics, for example. so if you can prove the design, you don't necessarily have to trademark anything. if you can prove that, that the point in time it's yours, you then, then, you know, your, your IP exists in that.  

Cause that was your creative endeavor. People still need to protect that, but there is a lot that goes on in, in, you know, in the tech industry, in the fashion industry, where there's a lot of kind of, you know, questionable kind of activity. And I think businesses, large businesses particularly think they can get away with it.  

They often use IP litigation goes the other way too. They'll often big guys, big, bigger. companies will often try and sue smaller companies, in order to cripple them or buy them. So it's usually used as a competitive tactic as well. we've seen that time and time again.  

[00:08:04] TEC: I mean, I guess the claims can get quite, can get quite chunky if you're sort of talking litigation. Is, is, is kind of legal expenses, do you get sort of full on cover for that? Cause I, I'm now imagining some sort of dramatised court case where this is sort of strung out over, over months with lots and lots of lawyers involved and things.  

Does it get as crazy as that or have I been watching too many films?  

[00:08:27] Michael Brunero: Oh, it can, it can. so yeah, it absolutely can. It really depends on who the, um. The, the litigants are in the case. There's a lot of cross claims. I think, you know, if you'll often find, for example, a trademark dispute, if you've got a trademark dispute going on between a us company, as soon as that, that claim comes in, you're spending a million us dollars on defense costs, for example, that's just straight out the gate.  

And that's usually just to get it to a settlement stat state. but even if you look to the press. I don't know if you remember a few years ago, it was been going on for some time, the, the huge IP action between Tinder and Bumble, Tinder, the big dating app. Yeah, it was, it was, it basically wanted to acquire Bumble and there was some internal machinations going on there between the two CEOs.  

They tried to acquire it. Bumble wouldn't buy, wouldn't sell, due to some of those, you know, personal conflicts amongst other things, but basically they wouldn't sell. So. Tinder came through with a whole swathe of, of IP litigation, you know, you've stole this function, this function, this function that looks a lot like us.  

And, and, and that was what it was designed to do to cripple them. And that's been going on for years and years and years. And they're those big ticket, very well known brand visible claims that are definitely out there. and those ones can trickle on for quite some time.  

[00:09:45] TEC: Wow, okay, so it sounds like there's some real punchy kind of claims going out there.  

[00:09:50] Michael Brunero: Yeah, I think everyone tries to get that market share. I often say, you know, it's really interesting working in the role I have because we get to see, technology businesses coming from all over the world. So we work globally from London, so we'll see a risk from Australia, the UK, Canada, the US, Israel coming in from all over the place.  

What tends to happen is it tends to be quite cyclical. So tech goes through massive fads and phases, as you probably know, but one minute we're talking about NFTs, then it's a metaverse, then all of a sudden it's AI and what often tends to happen is you'll get an idea. So at one point everyone was a, a social media site, and then you kind of see that bubble up and market share tends to get dominated by a couple.  

We've seen it with search engines, the dating apps that, that, you know, most of them are owned by match group. Delivery services, you tend to find there's tons and hustle and bustle until the 1 or 2 or 3 tend to take overall market share. And that's when things get really hot in the space. because it is, it's a climb knowing.  

I think that at the end of the day, there's not going to be tons of places for people. It's interesting. I used to write, I used to see dating websites. Every day, about five years ago, now the ones I see are very, very niche, like single Australians in London, things like that. So, yeah, the big ones tend to be taken.  

[00:11:08] TEC: Wow. Okay. that's that's. Yeah, I think you're right. You know, you mentioned a couple of things there, which were sort of hot topics like NFTs. You and I were talking about some, some time ago, and, I don't know. Maybe I'm not looking in the right areas, but they just seem to have just completely disappeared.  

Was that literally just a passing fad then? 

[00:11:29] Michael Brunero: A hundred percent. I think, I think what we saw with NFTs was a lot of tulip mania, right? You know, if you look at the core of why they were developed, it was really just to give, creatives, you know, people that were developing digital art, a way to. Kind of monetize off that, which is a completely, feasible reason for people to earn money that, you know, it's, anyone can copy and paste anything from the internet.  

So being able to wait a monetize that for, for people who were exerting creative effort. Great. Unfortunately, the tech industry got involved in it. My. How can we make this happen? And then all of a sudden people are buying bored apes for millions of dollars. And, and I think it went up and down quite quick.  

What'll be interesting, I think will be what they end up having use for, because the idea of digital ownership to me makes complete sense. so if they might go away and come back in a way that's actually quite functional, or even how we apply, NFTs to real life. Assets and tracking real life assets.  

So it'd be interesting to see what evolution it goes through. But I think the idea of NFTs as being really valuable pieces of digital art seems to have kind of trickled down a little bit. whereas the world of cryptocurrency has been up, down and around, but it hasn't gone away. It's always been sitting there.  

I think, you know, digital currencies are here to stay. The UK is finally regulating it. so I think, I think that kind of world is, is probably got a lot more value. That's actually starting to trickle into. To kind of more of a broad brush rather than just being a passing fad.  

[00:12:53] TEC: Right, yeah. And I mean, this must make underwriting incredibly difficult for for basically emerging tech, right? Because you've got these new things, you're not quite sure what the value is going to be or how they're going to be used. This must, this must be, I mean, there's, there's not too much new stuff goes on in other lines of business.  

Occasionally a new aircraft comes out and they have a look at it go, it's probably much, much, much the same as the previous aircraft, just with a few more bells and whistles. But for emerging tech, how, how on earth do you kind of go about understanding what the risk actually is and, and, and what needs to be ensured and how much for that, that must be a nightmare.  

[00:13:29] Michael Brunero: Yeah, it's, it's one of the things that gets me up and going all the time though. I always, a lot of what we do is liability insurance. So it's who's suing who like when a house, when I was doing property insurance, we do a little bit of it. I, I just looked at the three little pigs. That was my underwriting.  

I'm like, this isn't for me. What's it made of? Cool. I am much more interested by who's suing who and how. I think what you find with tech is, is tech doesn't really come with some big bang of evolution. Like, Oh my God, where did that come from? It's usually an evolution of already existing tech. I mean, if you look at chat, GPT generative AI has.  

Completely blown to a new level right now, but we've been writing chatbots, much more simplistic AI for some time. so it's, it's not like we haven't seen any of it before. so we're kind of able to use a lot of the same principles to our underwriting. It just gets more complex as the tech gets more complex.  

and that's really about, you know, how. Is the legislation, how is regulation going to respond to this? Because they don't always complement each other. You know, a lot of the law, for example, around IP never contemplated AI. So trying to mash the two together sometimes produces some very, unexpected and unintended, outcomes.  

but it doesn't mean. That we just turn off and say, well, this is too hard because we don't know. Because again, we need to be relevant to, to, to emerging industries. You know, it's not like we haven't been here before. Once upon a time, we were the first insurer to come out with a, a policy form specifically designed for the social media, for social media companies and the social media revolution.  

You know, we were seeing user generated content for the first time and people like, well, what is, what's going to happen? Who's responsible for this? You know, you've got defamation issues. If I've got, you know, a person posting on my platform, about a third party, you know, is that, is that me that's responsible?  

And the laws that were developed around that kind of had to, to, work with this very new world. And we take, we take measured risk and that's what it's all about. It's about dipping in, having a book that you know and are comfortable with that allows you to then explore new areas. but yeah, I think you can learn from the past, but you also, you, you, you're very, I'm always very surprised.  

By what we see, I, one of the things I learned when I came to the, to London, I started doing UK business is you might think, you know, how legislation's going to apply. Then you deal with the U S litigant and they don't care. They're going to sue you anyway. so then you've got defense costs kind of trickling from the first point.  

So it doesn't matter if you're right at that point, you're paying straight out the door anyway. So, so you kind of, you kind of, can throw some of that out the window and, and kind of just learn a little from how different. Like territories and operate, for example. But it's never black and white. 

[00:16:17] TEC: Yeah.  

[00:16:17] Michael Brunero: but you know, I guess it's interesting with the AI side of things, because it feels like, you know, regulators are already very much hot on, hot on the topic with AI.  

I don't think I've ever seen them react quite so quickly to something, which is probably a case in point.  

[00:16:32] TEC: But are they, see, this is the funny thing, right? it feels like the, the sort of, it's out there now. You know, the, the cat's out of the bag. We can't really, put it back in. And now generative AI is everywhere. we can get, like, straight onto it. Well, I could look up right now, or BARD, ChatGPT.  

Other generative AI is available, I think, but they're now talking about. Oh, should we pause this? Should we think about how we how we regulate this? Should we think about how we actually manage this? Because there are some inherent risks in using it, but it feels a little bit too late. Maybe that's just how regulation works, right?  

It comes in a bit of it after the fact, and, and then they go, Oh, boy, perhaps we should be looking at this in a structured way. But do you think it's too late for that? Or is there still time to make this to help around this area?  


[00:17:21] Michael Brunero: Yeah, I look, look better late than ever for me. you know, we, like I said, cryptocurrency has been around a, a lot longer than, than kind of the, the, the, generative AI that we're seeing now. And it's only just starting to get regulation. I think as an insurer, we are often expected to kind of be there for these risks before we know exactly how.  

the world's going to look at how it's going to react. so from my perspective, regulations better coming at some point. and you know, businesses then have to also post, you know, I guess assess their business to, to changing regulations. So I think it's always the way we're never going to have regulation and come, before the technology.  

Cause that's. That's dare I say, impossible. it's kind of, you know, the chicken before the egg style situation, but I think particularly with AI, I think, you know, there's, there's a, that, that kind of, there's a justifiable concern. I think with AI, I think there is when some real concerns about how it could be applied, you know, from, you know, a moral point of view.  

And an ethical issue down to, you know, you know, issues of ownership who actually owns that data. So I, I think it does need to happen. and it would get definitely give me a lot more comfort, but it's still an area that we're massively interested in that we've been underwriting businesses in for quite some time.  

but definitely feels like on this scale up, it's some, it's an area I'd be very keen to see how, how they balance that to that, that idea of, You know, encouraging innovation. There's some great efficiencies and there's some great stuff that can come from AI. you know, I hate admin. I am terrible.  

Ever since my days as a lawyer, my files were a mess. So if it can take any of my admin off my table, hey. Go for it. and we try to do that at work and kind of, you know, how, how we, you know, log submissions up to the system so that it's not a human doing it. But balancing that with some of those moral and ethical issues, I think is going to be an interesting challenge.  

it's never so easy to draw a line.  

[00:19:25] TEC: It's interesting. Again, we've been looking at different use cases of this, internally, trying to figure out, okay, what, what, what is the best, what, what, what, what are some really good use case? And again, being very sensitive to the fact that you can't put any sort of IP into it because it's not protected.  

So it's a very difficult thing to try and do when sort of proper search engines were coming about, right? We were taught very carefully to say, Hey, Right, when you're using Google, then don't just take the first thing that pops up as the answer and that's de facto the point, right, you need to go away and sort of have a look at multiple sources, check your facts and come back to it.  

With, with ChatGPT, you get into a situation where you can ask it a question and it will give you what sounds like an incredibly credible answer. It may be. But you just don't know. And and this is this is the problem, right? Because it's it's such a low bar to entry now for this that you can you can think you're coming across and think you're understanding and learning things in a certain way.  

But actually. You're just perpetuating a bunch of stuff, which is incorrect on the Internet, and that's and that's actually a real danger of it and having to apply that sort of that level of intellect above it, which is like, Okay, does this really make sense? You know, where you're using that as an expert in a field and using it to sort of hone down even more into what you're doing.  

Then it's really useful because you're going to have that level of grounding to go, I don't know, what it's coming up with now is just utter rubbish. Or it's like, no, no, that's actually, that aligns with, with the, the sort of current understanding. And here's a few nuances, you know, if it's, if it's something that's well documented on the, on the internet, then for sure it's going to be much better to do, you know, if you ask it to define.  

What a generalized linear model is, you know that there's there's relatively little ambiguity, and it could probably tell you that if you want to ask it sort of more opinion based stuff, then you've got to be incredibly careful, and it will give some interesting answers. But, actually, it's going to touch on a point you mentioned around the sort of social media platforms and how, things could be sort of propagated on there.  

I mean, AI and stuff can can really sort of. be used for this. So fake news that this was this is a huge thing has been a huge thing still probably is going to be even more of a huge thing. It's actually quite terrifying now how realistic things can appear videos and whatever else. But this is this is a problem still for for social media for fake news and how and what's put on the platform and how it's propagated.  

That's something as well that that's insurable against right and and is a proper concern.  

[00:21:54] Michael Brunero: Yeah. And it's, and it's, and again, that's one of those areas around where, how much responsibility does the platform have for fake news for misinformation? And it's still something around the world, different record is grappling to say, well, where does that line? Where is that line drawn? How much responsibility do you have to take it down?  

and, and how, yeah, how do you, how much kind of responsibility does it lie? Should you be doing it as soon as it's up? What, what, what, what identification? Does it matter in terms of how big you are in terms of how many users you've got? and I definitely think that's still, something that's a big concern for anyone on those platforms.  

it's, it's not so easy, especially when you're getting, the other side of it, not just individuals like you and I putting things on there. Not that I. Propagate false information, but state based, attacks, which, which are, you know, highly technical led, yeah, it's, it's, it's complex. And again, I find it, you know, you know, when people talk to me about, you know, regulating AI and how we're going to do it, I'm like, well, we haven't even solved some of the old problems.  

So I don't imagine it's going to be overnight. yeah, I think, you know, the space, the pace with which technology moves, um. You know, then you have to compare that with the pace at which legislation and regulation moves. And we're just in different stratospheres at that point. but again, I think it's really important, for the insurance industry to remain relevant.  

Because if we don't, and we can't be an adequate risk transfer model, customers are going to find a way, you know, they'll innovate in a different way. So I think, I think we have to be innovative to remain relevant. And, and that is about addressing some of these unknowns, you know, evolving what we have, evolving our products.  

One of the things I've really. about working at a business that's really, you know, pioneering in the, in the cyberspace is how we've been able to create products for industries that have digitized because the digital revolution has changed traditional sectors substantially, with healthcare going online, financial services, Being provided online, you know, the amount of technology that now goes into manufacturing plants.  

It's completely changing these businesses, technologies everywhere. And our products really need to start being aware of that. Even in traditional sectors, as, as you would know, even now, you know, how, how the world of aviation dealt with, with drones was, Oh, where do we go from here? that's going to continue to happen.  

[00:24:22] TEC: Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. And I'm just thinking now in terms of the, the sort of general market, you know, again, in, in, those sort of more, the lines we've talked about property liability, marine aviation, it is very cyclical still as an insurance market and, it's going up and down. And right now for quite a lot of lines of business, it's the hardest market they've ever seen, allbeit  slowly starting to soften. Tech, Media and IP, does that go through the same sort of cycles? I just wasn't sure, given that, given the fact that it's always sort of evolving.  

[00:24:55] Michael Brunero: Yeah, I definitely, it definitely goes through market cycles as well. I think, you know, tech tech's quite funny because it seems to straddle the world of cyber and PI because it's a combined policy. So if the, if the cyber market goes, it tends to follow that, but depends what, what the tech might, what the PI market's doing as well.  

But it, it typically follows the cyber market. So it's starting to soften. Media is a bit more niche media and IP a little bit more niche. IP particularly is an incredibly small market. I don't think a lot of people know that products out there and available. so it's not so subject to, to, to kind of, market cycles, but definitely the tech side of things.  

Media again, kind of fits a little bit in with the PI market. but yeah, I think we're definitely noticing a little bit of a softening in that space as, as, as we kind of come, you know, fall from that, those glory days of the cyber hard market.  

[00:25:49] TEC: Yeah, yeah, I think, yeah, it's an interesting one. And actually, this is, this leads me on to sort of my kind of last question, really, which is, around the soft market. And, and what, what, what do you think insurers in general should be doing to prepare for boiler pool being inevitably a soft market again?  

You know, we kind of cross our fingers and hope it's not going to happen, but it feels like an inevitability. So what are your kind of thoughts on how we should be preparing?  

[00:26:16] Michael Brunero: I guess it depends how your loss ratios look. no, I would say. I definitely think, and this is, this is a big, big, point in my team and my department is we got to go back to service more than anything. You know, if you've got a quality product, and you can provide quality service, you'll end up with quality results.  

I think, I think it's important for insurers to partner with their brokers, work with them and provide them a valid service. Then, you know, things largely look after themselves from there. Um. I think that that's, I find the insurance market so interesting, just, and, and, and the concept of Lloyd's where these underwriters who have the product have so much power over brokers, it's kind of like, hold on, I'm so used to doing it the other way.  

When someone's giving me business, how, you know, how do I service that to the best of my capability? And I think that's where insurers really particularly heading to that, that soft market cycle need to focus attentions. It's really about giving the broker what they want. Okay. you know, the timing that they need so that they can supply that to their customer, because that's really what this is about.  

At the end of the day, it's about servicing a customer's needs. and this is about, you know, you know, a lot bigger picture than than just insurance. It's about, you know, we kind of help the whole world move around. You know, we've seen some of the most baby little tech companies that are now very, very well known brands come through our doors as startups, which many of us have on our phone now.  

so I think we have a really, really important role to play. So I think service is a huge part of, as we enter into this soft market to, to partner well with our brokers.  

[00:27:48] TEC: Yeah, I couldn't agree more on that. And I think, with things like IP insurance, which you mentioned earlier as well, there's, there's a real need in the market for it. And they're not necessarily being aware of it. And the first time that the customer is aware of it is, is when the horrible thing happens and their, swimsuit line is, is, is stolen by a big brand and, you in trouble.  

And then of course you insure it, but the damage is done. So, I, I agree this, that, There's a lot of education that the market still can be doing, and there's a lot of business out there which is still uninsured or inadequately insured where we can sort of take advantage of. So soft market or hard market, I think you're right.  

I think we've got, we're here to protect the customers, right? That's that's what insurance is all about and making sure that they're getting exactly what they need. Yeah, couldn't agree more. Wonderful. All right. Well, Michael, thank you so much for your time. It's been absolutely wonderful to chat.  

And yeah, thank you for joining me.  

[00:28:45] Michael Brunero: Yeah. Thanks for having me. I appreciate the call.  

[00:28:49] TEC: That concludes another episode of TEC Talks. If you enjoyed today's show and want to find out more about the topics discussed, head over to to gain access to a range of resources relating to this episode. The link is in the description and of course wherever you're listening to this podcast make sure you like, subscribe and leave us a comment or review.  

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